Canta speaks to Hone Harawira

So, obviously, you're in Christchurch – I think – and the first thing I noticed about your arrival was that the Mana Party press release read "As if Christchurch hasn't suffered enough, we are now organizing Hone Harawira MP to visit". Did you write that?

Hell no. That was him. [points to Joe Davies of Mana Christchurch]

Will he be fired soon?

No. Hell no. You noticed. So did others. So, that's the point of media, apparently.

How long will you be here, and what do you plan on doing during that time?

I was planning to be here a couple of days but we've had a tangi up home ... so I'm having to cut things short, and head back home for that. Probably first thing in the morning.

I came down here once before – a couple of times, actually – and tried to stay away from all the politician light show; people flying in to get themselves on TV. In fact, it's been pointed out to me that I'm probably the only politician who hasn't been to see the red zone, and, quite frankly, I'm not planning on going to see the red zone. If you've already got a million people looking at it, then a million and one ain't gonna change anything. But I'm concerned about what's happening out in the poorer suburbs of Christchurch. So, last time I was down here, a mate of mine just took me around visiting families in and around Aranui, so I could just hear from them exactly what the issues were, so I'm glad I did that.

Other thing, too, is, I don't know if anybody here is keeping tabs on the big tsunami area in Japan. It's almost cleaned up already. We saw absolutely massive destruction; complete destruction, but in terms of the clean-up it's almost finished. Yet you go to the red zone; it looks as much like the red zone today as it did after it all fell over. So I don't know what they're actually doing. No criticism of the workers, who are doing the best they possibly can, but I think somebody needs to get a bit more focused on what they want to achieve out here.

Are you a student?

Yes I am.

And that's your jersey?

That is my jersey.

It's a very expensive jersey, isn't it? Did you steal it? I got me one of those and everybody was saying "Wow, how could you afford one of those?" And I'm an MP; you're a student.

When you launched the Mana Party, you had John Minto on board, and just recently, Sue Bradford announced that she'll be campaigning for you. This isn't just Hone Harawira's Maori Party, is it?

Actually, when we launched the Mana Party, John Minto was true to his thing. We launched on April the 30th, and today he launched his candidacy for the Mana Party, but he never actually joined for another two or three weeks. Because even though he thought that Mana was the kind of party that he'd like to be part of, [he has a] reticence of being in mainstream politics; they told him "No, no, no. Even the good ones are bad". But I guess the more he saw what we were trying to do – the audiences we were trying to speak to – I think he... I was crossing my fingers that he'd come over, but when he announced he would, I was happy as.

But John Minto and Sue Bradford aren't Maori, not by any stretch. One of the things I found was that the article that got me into big trouble with the Maori Party was an article I wrote in the Sunday Star Times in January, in which I criticized the Maori Party's over-enthusiastic clinging on to National; refusal to have a strategic relationship with Labour and the Greens; acceptance of essentially anti-Maori, anti-worker, anti-beneficiary legislation, et cetera, et cetera. When I did that article – and then I got asked to go all around the country to talk to people about it – I was surprised by the number of Pakeha who were coming up to shake my hand, and saying "Hey, it's not just Maori, Hone; it's not just Maori. But we're glad you're saying it". That student out there – that young Asian boy – I don't know the guy from a bar of soap, but, you know, he came up to say "Good on you. I believe absolutely in what you're doing".

Now, I gotta say, when that first started happening from about January, February on, I'm sort of sticking my hand out to respond to the hand shake with my other hand back here of course [Places his other hand behind his back]. Because as a long-time Maori activist, you're not overly comfortable with Pakeha wanting to take your ability to use this hand away, so you keep [the other one] free. But it also became clear to me that they weren't just saying "Hone, Pakeha people are suffering too". A lot of them were saying things like "I don't actually like you all of the time Hone, but I can tell that your people respect you for saying it. I don't actually like you Hone, but I wish my MP was like that. I don't agree with everything you say Hone, but I think Parliament would be better off if we had more people like you". So I just think that, by my speaking out that way, a lot of people are starting to say "Fuck, why aren't more people speaking? Why aren't more of our MPs saying this?" Because, clearly, there's a lot more people now in trouble, than used to be the case.

And with my history of Maori activism, it was always this assumption that, when you talk about poor people, you talk about primarily Maori, and then it became Maori and Pacific Islander. But I did an analysis in maybe about February or March, and I found out that there's actually more Pakeha people living below the poverty line than Maori and Pacific Islanders combined, and that's when it became clear to me that I'm talking about because of what I understand from my communities, but, in fact, as I say it, other communities are hearing exactly the same message. They're getting it, and they're going "Yeeha! Somebody's speaking up". I didn't actually go out to cultivate that non-Maori thing because I sound a bit funny trying to stand up and talk to Pakeha audiences; it doesn't work that well. But clearly they were responding to somebody speaking the same tune that was ringing in their own hearts.

Now, one of the central pieces of your platform is what you call this Hone Heke Tax, which is a financial transactions tax. Could you explain what exactly that is, and why you think we need it?

Well, I'll give you a couple of international reasons. When I first announced it, all the Labour guys were going "Poo, poo. Rubbish, rubbish. This can't work". Until not long after I first announced it, Sarkozy from France and Merkel from Germany said that they were getting their economists to look at it, and then last week, both of them said that they're going to try and make a financial transactions tax work in their own countries, right? So, Labour's scared of it. National is dead scared of it, 'cause it's targeted at their mates, and nobody, absolutely nobody, buys the financial transaction tax, the Hone Heke tax, except us. We're the only ones who do.

So here's the reality: you buy a pen, you pay GST. You pay petrol tax whether you're catching a bus or driving a car. We all pay all of these taxes, right? All of those taxes, and they're all aimed at, basically, the lower sector of our society, bring us a total tax revenue of $55 billion, right? According to Treasury, in the last financial year, there was $9.3 trillion worth of financial transactions in this country. Not Hone Harawira's figures; that's their figures, right? One percent of 9.3 trillion is 93 billion. So the Hone Heke tax is based on wiping out all these taxes which tax the poor and bringing in a tax that everybody pays on the basis of how many financial transactions they're engaged in. Which means that poor people...if a poor guy's only got two hundred bucks a week coming in and going out, then he pays two dollars a week. It's really as simple as that.

So that's what the Hone Heke tax is about. It's that simple. The problem is that the rich guys pay nothing, to the point where Gareth Morgan says "Hey guys, I can be paying taxes!", where Warren Buffet, the richest man in the world, actually said [puts on American accent] "Hey guys, I can be paying some taxes". You know what I mean? Even the rich guys fucking can see that either a tax system is brought in whereby there's a genuine share of that load or else countries are going to start falling flat on their faces because they haven't got the money to pay for the things they need. Now, with the current tax structure we have, we are paying $300 million a week in overseas debt repayment. Well, you know, how do you run a country like that? How do you run a country like that? Well, you can't. But they way we're running it, we're continuing to tax the poor and they're looking at even increasing GST again, and they're cutting back on health, and they're cutting back on – as you know – education. They're cutting back on a whole range of core services to society and they're trying to squeeze a little bit more money out of the bottom end.

Whereas the financial transactions tax, the Hone Heke tax, will chop down every one of those other taxes, and bring a simple tax.

Your party has been accused by some – and by some I mean Don Brash – of being a socialist party. He obviously means this in a rather unflattering way, but would you actually describe Mana as a socialist party? Is it?

[Laughs] Whatever Don Brash accuses us of is bound to be true. You'd have to say that our principles are more closely aligned with socialism than they are with Labour's policies, or National's policies, or ACT's policies. Yeah? I don't know if that... I don't read all of that – what are the classic criteria for a movement to be described as being socialist? – so I don't even want to think about that. All I want to think about is, if there are growing numbers of poor in our country, somebody's got to do something about it. If that makes us socialist, then yeah, we're socialist.

If you had to name, quickly, three key mistakes that this National government has made over the last three years, what would they be?

Giving tax cuts to the rich, taking away core services to the poor, and... [loud drill goes off] ...that'd be the third one; allowing those things to happen while I'm being interviewed.

What about three successes? Three things they've done right?

Three things they've done right? Uhm... [long pause]... There's got to be three, aye? Suggest some and I'll tell you whether I think they're alright.

[Joe Davies jokingly mentions the Urewera Raids]

I was actually going to ask you about that. Did you want to talk about that?

About the whole Tuhoe thing?

Yeah.

Well, just to say I'm... it's no surprise, aye? No surprise. They got sprung. The cops got sprung. They fucked up, and fucked up badly, and now the government's going to change the law to make that screw-up legal. You know, that's bullshit; and in doing so, impinging even further on human rights. Like, we're currently going through that bill to deny jury trials... and they're doing it because of money, to save money. It's bullshit. The three strikes legislation? Gee, that's three really good things from National; the three strikes legislation, the denial of jury trials, and the, you know, making the illegal raids in Tuhoe legal. Ah, no, heck it if I know. I can't think of what they've done right.

Now, the Mana Party has been actively seeking the student vote...

No, we're not, actually. We don't care whether students vote for us. We care that intelligent people vote for us...

Well I think that destroys that question then.

Look, I was a student once, and, shit, I thought one of the greatest things we ever had was student unions, for the simple reason that by having your own union that all students could feel comfortable with, students felt emboldened to write shit like this [picks up a copy of Canta]. You know what I mean? And any encroachment on students' ability to think outside the box is, I think it's a crime, because I – sorry mate, I don't get Canta – but I get Salient and Craccum sent to my office every week, just 'cause I like to read how crazy students still are, and also because, their articles, like, they did one against Wayne Mapp and his 90-day bill a few years ago when he was still in opposition. And the funniest thing I read, it was a really good article, but on the front page it had a photo of Wayne Mapp and above it had "Wayne Mapp" and underneath it had "Dumb Cunt". I thought to myself: only students can get away with crystallizing, into four words, how a lot of people think.

Do you fellas do the... [picks up Canta and starts flicking through]... the letters to the editor? That's another thing I really like to read because they're so strange, aye? [reads through the letters page]. Oh...it looks like your editor – the guy who responds – is quite polite. If somebody writes a critical article to Salient, the editor will write back and say "Who the fuck do you think you are, arsehole?" But the value of an independent student media, in my view, can't be expressed highly enough.

On a somewhat related matter, ACT is moving forward this Voluntary Student Membership Bill, which looks likely to pass its third and final reading. I take that you'll be voting against that, and if so, why?

Well a lot of it is because of my personal beliefs, but also because I know from having spoken to student groups around the country about how disappointed they are, how pissed off they are about the effect it's going to have on their ability to manage their own affairs. You know, the right wingers, are going to say "Oh yes, but students can do this and students can do that", but... it's not a lot of money. It's nothing, for the ability to have strong student bargaining, for facilities, for services, for one another. Because, without that, all students become is cogs in a big money machine.

I know, particularly for Maori students, how it's going to really impact on a lot of them; how, because Maori are communal by nature, how they like to hang out with one another. Pacific Island students are the same. They just like to mingle with one another. They like to know that there are those services in place that will help them, and things that, often, even a good counselor can't help them with. Their own student union can, because they're talking to people who are just like them. They're talking to people who are employed, not by anybody else, but by them, to meet their needs.

Now, I don't know if you were aware, but the single most pressing issue here on campus is that of getting cheaper food...

Cheaper fucking food, mate!? You know what? You know what? I just bought me and this guy a coffee and a cup of tea down here. It was only six dollars.

But...

No, no, no, no, no, no. If I go anywhere else and buy a coffee and a thing it's going to cost ten bucks.

But year in, year out, we elect a student body president who tells us they'll bring us cheaper food, and for some reason, we never get it. And my question was, what will Mana do to bring us cheaper food?

[Laughs] Hone Heke tax, mate. The Hone Heke tax will guarantee that whether you are a student, or whether you're just a person who works here – whether you're the cleaner, whether you're the builder outside here – that if you're making five hundred bucks a week, then the only tax you will pay is five bucks. So instead of losing, maybe, up to a hundred bucks in taxes, all you're losing is five bucks. Mana is going to provide for you the ability to provide, to buy kai. And if that takes away the cost of producing kai – and it does – then the cost of kai comes down.

Some things haven't changed, aye? It was like that when we were at varsity. We couldn't believe how cheap food was, but we still needed it to be cheaper.

How do you feel about owls?

Owls? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Wow. Actually, very rarely. That's how I feel about owls. Very, very rarely. Where did you get that question? Is that your fellas' mascot or something? Owls...

You've long been known as an activist, and activists tend to be quite angry about things. What's on your mind at the moment? What's something you woke up this morning and thought "I'm angry about that"?

This morning? Probably angry at myself, that my wife was going out paddling at six o'clock in the morning, and I wasn't...and I should've. I was angry that my mokopuna wasn't at home, 'cause I miss my mokopunas. I was angry that I was having to leave Kaitaia...

...Nah. I guess, you know, nothing in particular this morning. But, the things that make me angry, and when I talk to groups, I do it by standing people up. I'll stand a person up and say "See this person over here? This guy represents the super rich. Now, you guys stand up: you represent the 60% at the bottom end of our society. This guy has got more money than all of you guys." Now that makes me angry.

I know this is a stupid exercise, but could you humour me for a moment, and describe each of the following political parties in just one word? National...

Rich.

Labour

Liars.

The Greens

Friends.

ACT

[Long pause] Uhh...yeah, you'd have to say...about ACT, if it was one word, it's probably the word I'm not allowed to use anymore.

The Maori Party

Sad.

United Future

Irrelevant.

New Zealand First

Nowhere.

If the Mana Party were a shape, what shape would it be?

I guess the shape of a mother. Someone who cares for her children. Somebody who will fight to the death to protect her children.

Do you know what happens when you what happens when you put magnesium in water?

Hell no. What happens?

I don't know. I keep asking people but...

Is it one of those sizzling things?

I don't know. I think it turns purple or something... Now, what if you were on a boat, and I turned up, and I had a shovel, and I had a body, and I started digging a hole in the bottom of the boat to bury this body; what would you do?

I'd throw you off the fucking boat, mate. 'Cause the dead guy ain't going to cause me any troubles, but you clearly are! [laughs] ... I'd keep the shovel though.

To finish up, I'm going to read out the names of several individuals and you're going to say something nice about them. John Key...

John Key has a nice smile for a snake.

Phil Goff...

I wish Phil the happiest of retirements.

Don Brash...

There's probably a place for Don – a good role – in the Rocky Horror Show

Ben Uffindell...

If you're courageous enough, there's a place in Mana for you.

Hone Harawira..

Something nice to say about Hone Harawira? I couldn't possibly...